Ancistrus catfish February 6, 1996
In the transcript below, Tjudy, Arcadia, and Apistogramma are all the same
person: Ted Judy.
Tjudy says: The topic is Ancistrus temmincki...
Arcadia says: I have been working with Ancistrus temmincki, the bushy-nosed pleco, off and on for the past five years or so. I have bred them on a few occasions, the latest being just his past week.
Arcadia says: Actually I did not do anything personally, except try to create the right environment. I use the 'neglect until they breed or perish method".
Arcadia says: My pair consists of two three inch plecos that are rather nondescript in color. I wish I could find a pair of the really orange spoted temmincki that are supposed to exist, but that is a morph I have only seen in books,
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Arcadia says: Bushy -nosed plecos are not a very large fish as far as loricarids go. 5" is tops...
Liisa asks: excuse me Ted, but are you SURE your Ancistrus cats are the real temminckii?
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Arcadia says: I have found that once individuals get to that size, they do not make very good breeders anyway, so I rarely keep them beyond three inches. The best pair I ever had were no more than 1.5 inches, and they spawned regularly for me.
Arcadia says: Since I am not an ichthyologist specializing in loricariids I cannot say that they are for sure...but ray counts are consistant with those published in Burgess, 1989.
Arcadia asks: Liisa, what other ancistrus are normally available with a large number of nasal barbles?
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Liisa exclaims: there are at least 50 Ancistrus spp, and nobody in the world can right now tell them apart for sure!
Liisa says: the only Ancistrus normally available here in Finland is something that looks like temminckii, but probably isn't.
Arcadia says: I understand that, but I am really not overly concerned.......I have made the best effort to identify them that I can:)
Liisa says: ...so I can't name any real species
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Arcadia says: Well anyway, this pair seems to be the same species that I have had before, based upon plate and ray counts as well as coloration, and my original pair five years ago were Identified by fish gurus I rarely argue with...but we will never be sure. All I know is that this type is DIFFERENT than the 'bristle-nose' pleco that is very common...the ones that are black
with little white spots. This fish that I have is brown with larger lighter brown spots and the male, during breeding, get a very large number
Arcadia says: of fleshy protuberances on it's snout.
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Arcadia says: I have the pair set up in a twenty gallon high with driftwood, fine natural gravel, and a box filter. There is also a bulbous pot that they spawn in about the size of a softball.
Arcadia says: the opening of the pot is at the bottom of the pot so that the interior is probably quite dark...the male takes up residence in here all of the time...and the only time I have seen the female near it si during courtship..
Arcadia says: They are fed a variety of foods including cooked, skinned peas, blanched zuchini, live baby brine, flake and live tubifex worms (cleaned).
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Arcadia says: the temperature is about 78 F, and teh pH hovers around 6.8-7.0. But I have spawned this species at highr pH.
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Arcadia says: the female lays the eggs in teh pot and then abandons the male to guard and care for the eggs and fry. I do not know the exact gestation, but free swiming fry appear from the pot about twelve days after the female has been seen entering it with the male.
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Arcadia says: the fry are very hardy...a lot more so that other loricarid fry..
Arcadia says: lag has me
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Peter asks: Hmm...now what?
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Liisa says: too bad, I had some questions for him
Apistogramma says: ok I am back...
Apistogramma says: lag still has me.
Apistogramma says: I wil try to stick it out.
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Gecko exclaims: g'day!
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Apistogramma says: In the past I have been able to get this species to begin pairing off as early as 10 months.....and it seems that younger pairs make better spawners.
Apistogramma says: I have also had better luck with captive born than wilds..though this pair is wild.
Apistogramma asks: That is about it....questions?
Liisa asks: yes: how long does it take until the fry is about 1" long?
Payara asks: what is the survival rate of the fry?
Arcas asks: what is size a barring ....for breeding care to speculate?
Apistogramma exclaims: I must have really bored people with the number of people who have left!!!
Devin asks: at what age does sexual activity seem to begin?
Arcas says: why is size a barring... for breeding... sorry...
Ameca says: see ya.
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Apistogramma says: I have very few losses in teh fry....usually none. The fry usually breed by 12 months...and itlag has mee right back.
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Gecko exclaims: g'day!
Juanmi shakes everybody's hand and tell them he is happy to be here with them
Sabrina says: g'day, gecko.
Kenkearney waves.
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Apistogramma says: soory
Apistogramma asks: did the answers come through?
Gecko says: i should think so
Juanmi waves ted.
Sabrina says: ted, I'm not particularly interested in breeding, but would like to know more about them.
Sabrina says: ted I have one of the ones with little white spots.
Apistogramma asks: I do not know why size is an issue...possibly the male gets
too agressive for the females in a confined area?
Apistogramma says: hi juan.
Sabrina asks: what would be something good to read about them generally?
Apistogramma says: They do not get as big...and I have heard that they have been spawned....but I have not worked with them.
Arcas says: or maybe the fertility deminishes...as they get larrher..
Arcas says: larger...:)
Apistogramma exclaims: Wow thwe lag is really bad!!
Sabrina asks: ted, did you say you are not as familiar with the bristlenose?
Apistogramma says: I would suggest a book by Carl Ferraris called 'Catfish in the Aquarium"...Te
Sabrina says: thanks, ted.
Apistogramma says: No not really....I have always liked the bushynose better...
Apistogramma says: There are also several magazine articles out there if you have acces to back issues of FAMA, TFH and AFH.
Sabrina asks: are the bushynose harder to find?
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Apistogramma says: THey are usually labeled as bristle noses, but are brown rather than black, nad the males havea lot more and larger nasal barbels.
Liisa asks: how many Ancistrus spp. are normally available in the US? Just these two?
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Arcas says: whats the difference between the bushy and the bristle....and how do you sex thing...
Apistogramma says: Contaninants come in all of the time, but just these tw o are common.
Arcas says: sex them...:) my typing sucks...
Sabrina says: and why do you like bushy nose better.
Liisa says: Arcas, sexing is easy. male has always much more bristles.
Apistogramma says: Females do not have the barbels......bushys are more easily bred and have the larger barbels..that is why I like them.
Sabrina asks: ted, would you say these are better at eating the algae moreso than the regular plecos?
Payara asks: how voracious are the young?
Devin asks: did you mention what the physical differences were between the bushy and bristle Ted?
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Apistogramma says: I like them better than most of the Hypostomus and what was Pterygoplichthys because they are smaller, eat algae well, and rarely destroy plants.
Apistogramma says: Teh only noticable difference is smaller size (the brstle), less nasal barbage (bristle) and coloration.
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Kenkearney asks: what are the general sizes?
Juanmi asks: Do they only spawn in large trunks?
Payara asks: so..not voracious?
Apistogramma says: there is one bristle that comes in that is black with a white edge to the dorsal and caudal fin...that has been shown to disappear with age....but is is a rather pretty ancistrus.
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Apistogramma says: they are no large than 5 inches. they are cave spawners...usually under a piece of wood or, as in this pair, a pot.
Apistogramma asks: any more questions?
Kenkearney asks: would one be ok in a 29g?
Liisa asks: yes, how big litters you have gotten?
Juanmi says: A pot would make it, I have plenty pf panaques and plecos and lots of pots and I have never get a spawn, neithe rfrom ancistrus
Juanmi says: I should add they eat voraciously
Payara says: thanx juan :)
Liisa says: my Ancistruses spawned in a coconut shell
Arcas asks: does the male bond with only one female or can you have a colony?
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Arcas asks: how often do they spawn..and average brood size?
Apistogramma says: when you are trying to pick a pair, I would do it one of two ways. Find a shipment of small ancistrus that all look the same and came in at the same time from the same supplier...then by a lot of them...like six or eight. The other way is to get captive bred that you know are all the same species. Contamiants are probably very common in wild shipments, so mixed species batches are probably common as well.
Apistogramma says: This last spawn has twenty fry..that is a small spawn...but this pairs first. It is important to keep the pair alone with out other plecos of any kind. PLecos are all rather territorial to some degree or another. I have always had best results with a pair alone with a few dither tetras.
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Apistogramma says: a 29 gallon is large for a pair. I have rasied broods in as small as a ten gallon from small pairs.
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Dev asks: how fast do the fry grow?
Dev waves.
Juanmi waves Jeffrey.
Sabrina caves
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Arcas asks: what do you feed the fry?
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Juanmi says: wood, they need wood
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Apistogramma says: The fry get to an inch at about 6 months. THe come out of the pot at close to a third inch...I ship as small as 1/2 inch..they are very hardy.
Kenkearney asks: how much do the fry and adults sell for?
Gecko asks: feed the fry wood?
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Apistogramma says: I feed the same stuff as teh adults..but more baby brine..
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Liisa says: Right Juanmi, but do you know for sure why? i've heard at least two different theories why they need wood
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Sabrina says: I heard that the fiber helps their digestive system, liisa, but not for sure.
Juanmi says: I heard they need wood for their digestion, don't know for sure
Apistogramma says: whether wood is really necessary has not been proven for ancistrus as far as I know. I ahve bred them and rasied broods with out wood before.
Juanmi says: But a friend bred many and all the fry ate was wood
Juanmi nods his head in understanding.
Liisa says: I have heard that, and also that without wood their teeth get too long
Apistogramma says: the teeth thing is a new one for me :)
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Liisa says: It was in AFM or TFH, few months ago - new for me too
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Clk says: we are bouncing like yoyo's around here tonight
Apistogramma says: I have seen the adults eat algae off of wood, but never tear up the wood itself like Panaques like to do...
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Apistogramma says: I think that the secret is in teh protein...they really like the brine and their color really improves on it. They also spawn better is my experience..the fry definitely grow faster on brine.
Sabrina says: night everyone.
Sabrina waves.
Apistogramma waves
Sabrina exclaims: nighty night!
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Liisa says: gotta go, bye
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Payara says: by
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Apistogramma says: one thing that is really nice about loricarids..they never harm there fry.....bushy noses will spawn in hte presence of previous spawns until the fry are big enough to become cave competitors.
Payara says: cool
Apistogramma says: I have bred this species, clown peckolotias, royal farlowellas, and a couple different whiptail cats....none bother their fry.
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Payara says: hmm..
Arcas says: hmmmmmmmm
Dev says: do they tend to be picky eaters? I know hypancistrus sp. are notoriously difficult feeders
Apistogramma says: HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
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Apistogramma says: there is only one hypancistrus..teh zebra pleco (as far as I have heard)....these fry are not picky at all.
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Apistogramma exclaims: I like to give them a Hikari Algea Waer in teh morning and watch the whole batch descend upon it at once!
Dev asks: what is the pH of the breeding tank right now?
Apistogramma says: I have not checked in awhile...but probably within 6.8-7.2.
Dev nods his head in understanding.
Apistogramma says: I have bred them as high as 7.8
Dev nods his head in understanding.
Apistogramma says: sory Ken....adults retail about 7 bucks, and small around 5 or six.
Apistogramma says: get small ones if you intend to breed them.
Arcas says: often do they breed....the grovers bristle nose ..seems like they breed seasonally .... winter time if I can recall..
Apistogramma says: More often from December to March if they are wild caught fish......about two weeks after free swimming fry are let loose from the pot...so about once a month. Captive bred pairs genarally breed year around.
Arcas says: the grover's refering to friends of mine...
Apistogramma says: I know the Grovers:)
Arcas says: and actually ted's friends too...:)
Apistogramma says: bushy noses are are pretty good store business crop...I have never had a store turn them down in any numbers at a fair price.
Arcas asks: should I be concerned about in-breeding..?
Dev says: young ones are certainly rare here- all you find here are 5"+ adults that have numerous scars from old age and fighting :)
Apistogramma says: I do not hink that it is too much of a concern unless you start to use several generations from one pair. You can fisd outcrossed easily enough.
Arcas says: battle wounds...:)
Apistogramma says: Probablt more due to shipping. Fall is the best time to find young ones in stores.
Arcas asks: how many generations have you raised , Ted?
Apistogramma says: I have never gone farther than f2.
Arcas asks: can I place about 5 in a ten gallon to raise and breed? Would I be able to find the breeding pair and move the rest?
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Apistogramma says: One thing you could do Arcas is to get a few fry from me and a few from the Grovers (assuming they are the same species), raise them separatley and pair off unrelateds later on.
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Apistogramma says: raising 5 in aten is no problem, but as soon as sexual dimorphism rears its head I would go to 1 male and two fmales until apair forms.
Arcas says: interesting...
Apistogramma slaps his knees..
Arcas says: I remember our grow out.... they were going for a buck a piece should have taking advantage of that...:)
Arcas says: Fish Club 'grow out' contest...
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Plop plop, fizz fizz, Oh what a relief it is that Roger is here!
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Apistogramma says: a buck is about a normal baby fry price..I get 2.5 from stores at 1.5 inches..about 18 months though..hardly worth the time except I love these little plecos in ALL of my tanks:)....when they get to crowded every where I thin them out.